The following debate is an example of my desire to address a worn out argument about the paganism involved in using Christmas as a day to give gifts to friends and family. After seriously avoiding Christmas in any form several years ago, the Lord pointed out to me the truths of 1 Corinthians 8, 10 and Romans 14. There, Paul the apostle explained that meat was offered to idols in those early days as a form of worshipping false gods. But since Paul knew there was only one true God, and that an idol was "nothing," he said that he felt no qualms about eating meat offered to idols. Its only eating food in his mind.
But to those who were freshly converted from paganism, and would regard the idol as a god to some degree, Paul's eating such meats would be sinning against Christ, because their consciences were "weak." Paul said he would not eat meat around such people for disregarding their concerns, though misdirected as they may be, Paul would sin against Christ by knowingly offending such people.
Christmas truly did come from pagan sources. But if we do not regard the deities for which it was invented to honour, and we only regard it as a time of giving gifts to one another on December 25, then there is simply no idolatry involved any more than eating meat was idolatry in Paul's mind.
The following is a debate I had with one of the loud minority, who are always the ones who speak out forcefully against what they consider as evil. It is the silent majority that needs to speak up more often and challenge their unreasonable concepts.
You will notice the manner in which the person did not care whether or not the person giving gifts on Christmas day did it as an act of worship to a deity or not. Notice the manner in which this person says, "Whether you worship them as such or not," and "with or without a heart's intent." He tried saying that it does not matter if you do a thing in worship of a deity, it is still idolatry if it is what idolaters once did in worship of an idol. This is simply ridiculous thinking. If he is correct, then eating the meat distinctly known to have been offered to idols was an act of idolatry on Paul's part, despite Paul's words that an idol is nothing and he did not eat the meat to honour any such idol.
This man's words are marked by the bullet indications and my responses
follow in the normal paragraph form. I trust this helps you see the
error of witch-hunting and false accusations that these believers hold
to.
Brother, if you know that Christmas is rooted with rituals which were engrafted from ancient Pagan tradition (whether you worship them as such or not),
This is the issue. Worshipping or not worshipping. Paul said that meat was offered to idols in worship of that idol, and that the weaker brethren who had conscience to the idol should not eat the meat or see any believer eat the meat. But Paul said he would eat it himself personally since he had no conscience to the idol. Christmas is the same thing. Did Paul know the meat was offered to idols? Did he know that it was used in idolatry? Yes. But he ate it because he did not worship the idol or have conscience towards it.
if you know the birth of Christ and the December 25 calendar is inaccurate, if you know the Holiday was never given of the Apostles, but of Rome, if you know it is mentioned nowhere in doctrine to be observed, if you know it is a creation of a church that is clearly apostate to the word of God and its truths (and created not for Christ but for numbers), if you know all these things brother, why then do you allow yourself, your family, and your congregation to partake in it in any fashion, for any reason? What guides you to participate in it? Because everyone else does? Because you feel no conviction?
There is no idolatry in simply using that day to give gifts to my friends and family. It is really stretching the word of God to apply forbiddence of idolatry, which is the WORSHIP of idols, to giving gifts on Dec. 25, simply because pagans did it in honour of their gods around that season due to some sort of sun god worship. I do not use it to worship God with. I feel that borrowing from paganism, as the Roman Catholic Church admits to doing, is simply wrong and erringly presumptuous. As you indicate we are not told by the Word of God to celebrate these things in honour to Him, and I do not do that. I just give gifts to my friends and family on that day.
Call it justified by "meats to/not to idols" doctrine in your own mind, but you will find no justification in the word of God to observe the Holiday in any form.
That is just it. I do not "observe" it in any form. "Observing" something is religiously ritualizing it in a form of worship. It is keeping the day as a holy day, which it is not. The term "holiday" came from the term "holy day." And it is no holy day to me. Giving gifts on that day is a far cry from "observing" the day as a holy day.
So are automobiles. Perhaps like the Amish, we should dispose of automobiles simply because they are "man-made." What about this computer we are discussing this on? It is "man-made." Saying that Christmas is wrong since it is man-made is nonsense. But if you are trying to say that man-made forms of worship not given to us from God are wrong to utilize in our worship, then I agree. But Christmas is nothing to me as a form of worship to God. I do not worship anything with it.
It is man made to walk into stores and buy gifts period. But it is not idolatry since there is no worship of an idol involved. Same with giving gifts on Dec. 25 underneath a decorated tree.
None. I do not "observe" Christmas as a "holiday" or a "holy day," but simply enjoy giving gifts to my loved ones on that day. That is a far cry from "observing it" as a holy day. I observe no holy days or holidays.
Are we called to come out from the traditions of men, the ways of the world, the vanity of the heathens, or do we just say it is ok, because I do not worship this or that as others do?
If there is no worship there is no idolatry. Coming out from the world and being separate regards the idolatry and false worship of the heathens and sinful practices of men against men in the world. Again this is a far cry from giving gifts to my loved ones on Dec. 25th. And whether we worship false gods or not on that day makes all the difference in the world! It is the difference between kindness and IDOLATRY!
Witch hunting is exactly what you are doing. Witch hunters waste precious time they could be spending on coming closer to the Lord but instead they want to learn more about what they can point out as being evil. Sad waste. I heard witch hunters provide you with more information on what is evil rather than tell you what is good and what is of God.
And to say that taking a gift out from underneath a decorated tree on Dec. 25 is identical to bowing down before an idol and worshipping it, as one of your friends claims, is to simply be nonsensical again. This type of folly is total ignorance of the intentions of the heart. You do not care why a person leans over and picks a gift up from underneath a decorated tree, but rather the manner in which it looks like someone bowing down before an idol. You do not care if there is absolutely no worship in a person's heart towards any idol or deity, but rather that it looks like it. And that is enough for you to call it idolatry.
This is legalism to the extreme.
Legalists care only about the outward rules they enforce and even command people to not bother to find out WHY such things are demanded. There is no regard for the heart of a person in legalism. But this goes beyond that. This form of legalism that you are involved with simply looks at the similarity of picking up a gift from underneath a tree, which requires a bending over and lowering down of oneself, to the bowing down of an idol in pagan worship, and claims the leaning over to pick up a gift is worship of an idol.
As I stated in my original, it is a matter of love for truth, and knowing the roots of where this holiday came.
As I once thought, too. But you are gravely mistaken. If you were consistent, which you are not, and would say that the origins of everything must be considered whether or not we "worship" what the originators of a thing worshipped by using that thing, then you could never call the days of the week "Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday." Why? Because these are all names derived from pagan deities and those days honour those gods by calling those days after their names.
Sunday was named in honour of the sun god.
Monday honoured the moon god.
Wednesday honoured Woden.
Thursday honoured Thor.
Friday honoured Frig.
Saturday honoured Saturn.
And by the strain of thought you live by saying that the origin of a thing determines its idolatry, even though we honour not any such folly of idolatry, you must also stand and say we cannot refer to the days of the week after the names given in honour to idolatrous false gods. Although you in no way honour those gods in your heart, you nevertheless call those days of the week after their names which names were given in the intention of honouring those gods. So you are not even practicing what you preach.
Why then, knowing all these things, would I want to involve myself with a Roman Holiday or any other similar rooted festivity in any fashion for any reason? I am not of Rome or its church, I am not of Egypt, or its traditions. Continue in them if you like brother (with or without a heart's intent),
"With or without a heart's intent"??? That makes all the difference in the world. You are saying it does not matter if I intend to worship an idol but that I am worshipping an idol anyhow. That is nonsense. If we simply threw up our arms and waved them in church like those who worship God do, then we both know since it is not from our hearts in worship towards God that God will not accept it as worship. But you turn around and say that despite the absence of worship in our hearts for the idol, we are still worshipping the idol. That is blatantly inconsistent and nonsensical.
accuse those who stand against Roman traditions of making false accusation when we say it is pagan and idolatry.
I once again accuse you of total false accusation and misrepresentation of the word of God when it warns against idolatry. Idolatry is only practiced when one consciously worships the idol.
We shall see what the Lord says of it all when we stand before him. If God did not ask us to observe it, why do you?
What is your bottom line reason to continue if it is not of God?
I will not compromise on that which I know is rooted in pagan tradition (for any excuse).
Then you better not call the days of the week after the pagan gods honoured by naming these weeks after them.
I will not either! See, you are missing the entire point. You are not seeing that simply giving gifts on that day without any intention to worship anything is simply not celebrating a festival towards a deity.
Because if I do, I do it from its foundation, which was of men, and not God. The roots of a bitter tree can never make sweet tasting fruit brother.
Your "meats and idols" theories bear little weight when compared to all that I have put into the study according to the root of this celebration.
Your study totally ignores the core element of the entire issue and that is whether or not people do these things in honour of a deity. As Paul said, meat was offered to idols in explicit fashion by the pagans. But to him, he simply did not honour any other god's existence, let alone their supposed "glory," when he ate the meat. It was as innocent as eating food to him. And so is giving gifts on Dec. 25.
Because there is no justification for an Apostolic believer to celebrate this holiday by the word of God.
Who is celebrating it? Not me. Again you miss the entire point. My argument does not fit into your paradigm of what is wrong about Christmas, so you ignore my point and simply and very legalistically declare a person is a idolater simply because they APPEAR to be worshipping by leaning over and picking up a gift under a decorated tree.
If that is your reasoning, then it is very foolish. Your computer is of men.
Not at all! It is a faulty conclusion based upon totally missing the simple definition of the term IDOLATRY.
But as I said in my first "the carnality within men will always search for something to justify that which is not given of God, so that it may justify its own actions".
It is carnality and plain ignorance to misinterpret the Word of God and accuse others of idolatry for the simple sake of appearance and total avoidance of the issue of idolatry truly being intentional worship of an idol.
I am glad to see there are some pastors that have the fortitude and love for God to separate themselves from the traditions of MEN and leave excuse behind with the tradition also. Quality check.
I hope these "pastors" would realize their folly in thinking the heart of the person and the intentions of the person do not matter. They need to read a simple dictionary definition of "idolatry" and see that it is "worship of an idol." And they need to stop falsely judging people for committing idolatry, for they will meet God on such blatant misrepresentation and false accusation of actions.
One said that my reasoning of simply regarding what my conscience determines as sinful or not would allow an adulterer to continue committing adultery if that adulterer does not regard adultery as sin. This is foolish. Adultery is distinctly labeled as sin in the Bible. But eating meat is as innocent as can be. And giving gifts to people is likewise innocent. It does not matter what day we do it on. It is innocent if done simply to give gifts. So the idea that an adulterer is free to commit adultery due to my reasoning is simply nonsensical.
It is simply legalism to an incredible extreme to not care whether there is intentional worship or not in an action as innocent as giving gifts to people. It is severe judgmentalism to not care whether or not the heart has conscious intention of worshipping. I cannot speak out against such false accusations of people enough!
The preceding points raised to these brethren were never responded to, and they continued calling me a liberal and an idolater, never once addressing the issue of the days of the week named after false gods. They continued to ignore my reference to what the definition of IDOLATRY actually is. Their reasoning was blind and they ignored anything to do with why a person does a thing. Such is severe legalism and witch hunting.
Such folks often are sharp-edged in their attitudes and enjoy throwing cruel labels towards their opponents. These specific folk simply cut me off altogether from even responding to them, and after calling me an idolater and a liberal and a paper-ordained preacher, I simply called their arguments "moot," and "missing the point." Those words of mine were the basis of their casting me out of their discussions, whereas their words to me were severely more heated and insulting. Willing to continue my chats and get to the real issue, these men simply cut me off refusing to discuss the matter.