The following debate is another example of my desire to address a worn out argument about the paganism involved in using Christmas as a day to give gifts to friends and family. After seriously avoiding Christmas in any form several years ago, the Lord pointed out to me the truths of 1 Corinthians 8, 10 and Romans 14. There, Paul the apostle explained that meat was offered to idols in those early days as a form of worshipping false gods. But since Paul knew there was only one true God, and that an idol was "nothing," he said that he felt no qualms about eating meat offered to idols. Its only eating food in his mind.
But to those who were freshly converted from paganism, and would regard the idol as a god to some degree, Paul's eating such meats would be sinning against Christ, because their consciences were "weak." Paul said he would not eat meat around such people for disregarding their concerns, though misdirected as they may be, Paul would sin against Christ by knowingly offending such people.
Christmas truly did come from pagan sources. But if we do not regard the deities for which it was invented to honour, and we only regard it as a time of giving gifts to one another on December 25, then there is simply no idolatry involved any more than eating meat was idolatry in Paul's mind.
The following is another debate I had with one of the loud minority, who are always the ones who speak out forcefully against what they consider as evil. It is the silent majority that needs to speak up more often and challenge their unreasonable concepts.
If he is correct, then eating the meat distinctly known to have been offered to idols was an act of idolatry on Paul's part, despite Paul's words that an idol is nothing and he did not eat the meat to honour any such idol.
This man's words are marked by the bullet indications and my responses follow in the normal paragraph form. I trust this helps you see the error of witch-hunting and false accusations to which these believers hold, that we might not be caught in the same false judgmentalism.
Dear Pastor Blume How can Witchcraft be a little issue?
I did not say it was a little issue.
You state that "Christmas is undoubtely Pagan in origin." "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."-Ex. 20:3 If T.V. is wrong according to the UPCI and a sin then how much more is it to disobey and rebel against the Holy Word of God?
Brother, what is idolatry? It is the conscious worship of a false god, or it is the conscious worship of God with false rituals from pagan groups. It is not idolatry to enjoy Christmas and not consciously honour any false gods nor the true God with it. Prove to me that idolatry is doing something without any regard or consciousness to worship anything. You can't. If it is idolatry to do so, then you are committing idolatry everytime you name a day of the week after the days Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, etc, since they are all names of pagan gods given to those days. To merely name the days as the names the heathens gave to those days after their gods is idolatry, if giving gifts to one another is idolatry, even if there is absolutely no worship to any god in heart.
Anyone who disobeys Jer. 10:1-21, Ex. 20:1-5, Deut. 4:2, Rev. 22:18-19, Gal. 1:8-9, 1 Cor. 6:15-16, 2 Cor. 6:13-18, Eph. 5:6-17, 1 Sam. 15:23, Acts 17:16, 1 Cor. 10:14, Gal. 5:19-20, are on their way to a real burning Hell.
I agree. But all these verses speak of idolatry which is conscious worship of a god.
Look up the meaning of the word.
Yes Hell a real place that many preacher don't even talk about anymore because they are afraid that some will leave the Church and take their money with them. God has called you to take a stand for Biblical Truth not Paganism, Witchcraft, or Satanism. Why do you defend the Pagan Christ-Mass?
I do not defend any pagan ritual. I defend the fact that it is not idolatry to give gifts in December 25 with no conscious intention of praising any god whatsoever. To say differently is to simply misconstrue the biblical warning against idolatry. And we will stand before God if we say that it is idolatry and God says it is not.
The reason that many Christians are weak and have very little understanding is because very few ministers have any backbone and will name Sin in the pulpit and teach the Church Truth and teach against that which is wrong.
Brother, if idolatry is not what you say it is, then you will stand before God to give account of accusing people of idolatry when it was not idolatry at all. I am confident that idolatry is not giving presents to people on December 25. If there is no conscious intentional praise to any god in doing so, then it simply is not idolatry. How can you say it is idolatry to give a gift to somebody? Simply because the Roman Catholics say that Sunday is the Sabbath and we should worship God in the Sabbath, does that mean that those who disagree and say that Sunday is simply a day to praise God are in league with the Catholics who say it is the Sabbath? Of course not! Yet you go to church on Sunday, just like the Roman Catholics do as they honour it as Sabbath.
Does that mean you are in error as they are (for Sunday is NOT the Sabbath)?
Will Blood be on your hands? "The issue is what is in your heart when you do it and why your doing it?" Well with this kind of thinking one could reason that there is no Sin as long as one thinks that what he is doing is ok.
Nonsense. I am saying that if it is not in your heart to honour a false God, then Paul said it is not sin. I am NOT saying that if you commit adultery, but it is not in your heart to sin, then adultery is not sin. Come on! Do not misrepresent me like that again, please.
The huge difference is in the fact that adultery is in actuality a sin. But in actuality there are no other gods. And when we know that and therefore do not honour any other gods with christmas, then it is not sin. Your comparison is simply far out.
Why I could drink beer and its ok because I am drinking it to rember that Jesus turned the water into wine and in MY HEART I AM DOING IT TO GIVE GLORY TO GOD!
And you made the same error as others did when they said that I implied I honour God with Christmas. Where did I say that Christmas is fine so long as we honour God with it?
I could smoke dope and say well God knows my HEART and the only reason that I am doing it is so that I can have visions of God on his throne!
Another identical error of my thoughts.
One can bring an idol of Zeus into the Church set it up on the alter fall down before it and call it Jesus. But does this make it right or harmless? No!
Agreed totally!!! And you are missing my point. If we take Christmas and say that we must celebrate it to honour God, and that God is pleased with that, then we are wrong. I never said that was right. But if I simply take Christmas and give a present to my children on that day, it is not idolatry, I don't care how you twist it.
Then I could say Church please don't show a bad spirit or condemn any weak Christians that are here today that might worship this Idol of Zeus that we now call Jesus! We don't want to hurt their feelings and tell them the Truth that this is really Idolatry. Why this is just a little issue we need to focus on the big things and not this little idol. The UPCI use to teach that SIN is SIN and SIN will not enter Heaven. folks may bring in the Baal Bush into their home set it up grather around it and begin singing "O Christmas Tree, How lovely are thy branches" and believe in their Heart that they are giving God glory but their not.
Agreed. And please stop accusing me of saying they are. You totally misrepresented me in this post to me. You obviously did not read the words I said when I said that taking Christmas and using it to honour god is idolatry and wrong. But what is NOT wrong is picking up a gift under a christmas tree and opening it, simply because it is under a christmas tree. And it is not wrong to have a christmas tree in the house if all that it is for is decoration by the gifts, AND NOT an object we use to worship false gods or the One God with.
I can say that I BELIEVE IN MY HEART THAT I AM SAVED I CONFESS THAT JESUS IS LORD, but that will save no one. One must obey Acts 2:38 and the rest of the Bible! Idolatry in any form is wrong, are we not One God Bible believing people that have been call o ut of darkness?
Amen. I agree to all you said. But what is idolatry? Is it idolatry to have a decorated tree in the house when nobody is worshipping God through it nor other false gods through it? No. Some people worship plants. Is it therefore idolatry to have a flower in a pot in your home? Of course not. Same thing.
How can anyone preach against Satan one Sunday and the next day turn around and join in a Satanic, Pagan Mass in honor of the Sun God Baal or Satan?
Who is doing that? Not me. Brethren, you need to realize what idolatry is and is not. You need to study what Jeremiah 10 really meant, and that it involved the thought of consciously worshipping a CARVED IMAGE made from a tree, plated with gold and silver and fastened to an altar. God mocked their shaped, wooden idols by calling them "trees," for they were simply wooden, and were not gods at all.
"A DOUBLE MINDED MAN IS UNSTABLE IN ALL HIS WAYS"-James 1:8. Are there no real preachers today that will take a stand for God's word and be against Sin? I say these things to wake you up out of your sleep with love if any man of God really loves souls he will not give in to Sin.
I only ask you properly represent me and not falsely accuse me of saying what I never did say.
What you are all saying is that idolatry exists and is practiced even though there is absolutely no intentional and conscious praise given to any false deity. And you are wrong.
If you are right, then you had better stop calling the first day of the week, "SUNDAY," for you are agreeing with the heathens that it is in honour to the sun god, although you do not consciously agree with it.
If you say I am aligning myself with pagans and am praising their gods, even though I do not consciously do so, simply by giving gifts on December 25 to my children, then you are likewise acting as though you praise the sun god on the first day of the week simply by calling that day "Sunday."
Remember: "Consistency, thou art a rare jewel indeed."
In Him,
Mike